[Interview] Kim Moon-soo: "If the Two Major Trade Unions Participate in Dialogue, Benefits Are Certain"

Interview with Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council
Striving to Balance the Labor Reform Master Plan
Will Do His Best to Achieve Labor Reform During His Term

[Asia Economy Reporters Koo Chae-eun and Moon Je-won] “The Labor Reform Master Plan Advisory Group was composed of members representing various opinions, including those close to the corporate side and those close to the labor union side, in an effort to maintain balance.”

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council (ESLC), recently stated this in an interview with Asia Economy at the ESLC office in Jung-gu, Seoul, regarding the composition of the 'Labor Reform Master Plan' advisory group. He emphasized that the group was formed with progressive and balanced personnel from both left and right to carry out labor market structural reforms with fair and unbiased standards.

The ESLC is a presidentially-appointed social dialogue body established to resolve labor-management issues. The Yoon Seok-yeol administration has prioritized labor reform among its three major reforms (labor, education, pension), and the ESLC has taken the lead in drafting the blueprint for labor reform. Two advisory bodies are being formed within the ESLC: the Advisory Group for Improving Labor-Management Relations Practices and the Research Committee for Improving the Dual Structure. Each group is expected to include around 10 experts. Based on the discussions of these advisory groups, the ESLC plans to complete the Labor Reform Master Plan by June.

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council, is being interviewed on the 30th at the Economic, Social and Labor Council in Jongno-gu, Seoul. Photo by Kang Jin-hyung aymsdream@

Chairman Kim clarified regarding the two major labor unions currently not participating in social dialogue, “Not participating in dialogue does not mean labor reform will not be pursued.” He explained, “(However) it will be made clear that there are benefits to participating in dialogue.” Kim said, “The ESLC is a place for dialogue. If the president plays the role of a father with strong power like Thatcher or Reagan, we here should play the role of a mother, coordinating and facilitating dialogue.”

Regarding criticism that the new government’s labor policy is overly pro-business, he said, “It should be viewed from the perspective of the rule of law.” He added, “Labor unions have been the weaker party and, despite having 3 million members, were often treated as ‘extraterritorial’ where laws did not apply. Many actions transcended the law. But President Yoon Seok-yeol has set a principle of not compromising with illegality. He emphasized the rule of law.”

Below is a Q&A with Chairman Kim.

Efforts Made to Ensure Balanced Personnel Composition in Labor Reform Master Plan

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council, is being interviewed on the 30th at the Economic, Social and Labor Council in Jongno-gu, Seoul. Photo by Kang Jin-hyung aymsdream@

The ESLC is a social dialogue body, but the two major labor unions are not participating. What is your view on this?

(The unions) should not use their refusal to engage in social dialogue as a weapon. Not participating in dialogue does not mean ‘labor reform is not necessary.’ Labor reform will proceed regardless of dialogue. This is President Yoon Seok-yeol’s rule of law principle. Dialogue is preferable. If consensus is reached, that is better, and legislation based on dialogue and consensus is even better.

How will you persuade them to participate in social dialogue?

We will make it clear that there are benefits to participating. If participation or non-participation yields the same result, there is no incentive to join. We will show that participation is helpful and resolve issues through dialogue. Democracy is the politics of dialogue. Dialogue is the most important means.

Please explain the Labor Reform Master Plan.

It is about drawing a blueprint for what labor reform should ideally look like. The personnel composition reflects people who think from the corporate side, those who think from the labor union side, and differences in labor law tendencies, even though the law is the same. We tried hard to maintain balance. If there is any bias, criticism and pointing it out is welcome.

Rule of Law Is Important in Labor Policy Direction... Dual Structure Issues Should Be Addressed Step by Step

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council, is being interviewed on the 30th at the Economic, Social and Labor Council in Jongno-gu, Seoul. Photo by Kang Jin-hyung aymsdream@

There are criticisms that the new government’s labor policy is too pro-market and pro-business. What is your view?

I think it should be viewed from the perspective of the rule of law. It is by no means pro-business or pro-authority. Since the 1987 Great Workers’ Struggle, there have been major strikes and aftershocks. Labor unions have been the weaker party, and despite having 3 million members, laws were often not applied as if they were ‘extraterritorial.’ Many actions transcended the law. But President Yoon Seok-yeol has set a principle of not compromising with illegality. He emphasized the rule of law.

Labor reform’s most contentious issue is the dual structure reform. How do you think it should be addressed?

The dual structure is a complex issue. This year marks the 70th anniversary of the Labor Standards Act. However, many workplaces with 1 to 4 employees are still not covered. They say business is difficult if the law applies, but the original intent of the law is to apply labor standards especially to small businesses. This is the number one issue in improving the dual structure of the labor market. Also, there are many problems when looking at the differences between primary contractors and subcontractors, and between large and small companies. Currently, only 14% of workers are unionized, while 86% are not. Until now, unions have only dealt with their own issues. The urgent problems of the 86% who are not unionized have been neglected. That is not right. These people also need protection from the state.

Labor Market Flexibility Is Rational but May Cause Conflicts

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council, is being interviewed on the 30th at the Economic, Social and Labor Council in Jongno-gu, Seoul. Photo by Kang Jin-hyung aymsdream@

What do you think about the government’s major direction to move from seniority-based pay like the step system to a job-based pay system?

I think the government should first lead by example with public officials and public institutions. The private sector is already operating autonomously. Even if the private sector cannot manage it on its own, it cannot be forced. To change the wage system, public officials should start first. It is not right to ask the private sector to do it when public officials themselves cannot.

Is there strong opposition from public sector unions?

That issue must be resolved first. When I was governor of Gyeonggi Province, I tried to improve and resolve such issues in affiliated institutions, but it was not easy. I think it is basically because there is no competition. The private sector has competition among companies. Before talking, the private sector is already leading in this area.

There is criticism of labor hour flexibility (up to 69 hours per week). Critics say that if the weekly standard changes to monthly or quarterly, irregular working hours could threaten workers’ health.

Think of an ice cream factory. It doesn’t sell well in winter. In summer, work is intense, and in winter, workers can take more vacation. Time flexibility is necessary, but fixing it at 52 hours per week is rigid. Workers can choose to work more and take a month off in summer. However, I understand concerns on the ground. If a manager asks to work more, it is hard to refuse. Even if labor and management agree, it is not easy. So I think this issue may cause pain and conflict.

Will Do Our Best to Realize Labor Reform During Term

Kim Moon-soo, Chairman of the Economic, Social and Labor Council, is being interviewed on the 30th at the Economic, Social and Labor Council in Jongno-gu, Seoul. Photo by Kang Jin-hyung aymsdream@

Platform industry workers and the MZ generation are emerging as laborers. How should these changes be reflected in labor realities?

There are parts where the law cannot keep up. There are blind spots that past labor laws cannot protect. That is why there is an effort to pay platform workers more and provide smarter working methods. Such autonomy should increase. Also, the MZ generation tends not to join the two major unions but engage in union activities according to their individuality. The two major unions should reflect the opinions of various layers of workers more. That is how the labor sector and society can become more vibrant and flexible.

The government has started discussions on extending retirement age. However, recently in France, large-scale strikes occurred over retirement age extension, causing significant turmoil. How do you plan to approach this?

If the retirement age is extended, the wage peak system should be adjusted accordingly, and the pension start age should be pushed back. These two must be combined, but it is not easy. Ultimately, it must be resolved through dialogue and agreement. The ESLC is a place for dialogue. If the president plays the role of a father with strong power like Thatcher or Reagan, we here will play the role of a mother, coordinating and facilitating dialogue.

What is the one thing you want to achieve during your term?

I want to make labor reform a success. I believe President Yoon Seok-yeol has already achieved the best labor reform in the past 30 years. Many changes have occurred in just a few months. Whether it is the Cargo Solidarity or any organization, if there is illegality, sanctions are immediately applied on site. This is a big change. As chairman of the ESLC, I will actively convey the atmosphere of labor-management relations, difficulties, and solutions obtained through tripartite dialogue to the president. And I will continue to strive to enable unions to participate in dialogue.